and furthermore, the savings medicare not between 65 and 67, they're around 80. this is going to be no savings, you're going to replace it with some bureaucratic hodgepodge. >> that's the point, though. he's painting this as if any democrat who goes along with one of these sort of compromises that you get to down the road, that this is, basically -- >> i think paul krugman's great, but i disagree with him. we are going to have to cut spending and raise taxes, somebody will have to admit it. >> howard and haines, the economic argument on the 1990s. we commercialize the internet, about the equivalent of a telephone. the nasdaq went from 800 to 4,500, oil was at $18 a barrel, government spending was significantly lower because when clinton raised the taxes, we went to a surplus. so when you think that these tax increases aren't going to affect the economy because they didn't affect it in the 1990s, you're hanging your hat on a ridiculous -- >> that's paying the price for getting out of this ridiculous deficit. >> the idea that once we implement the tax increases the